Tuesday, October 11, 2005

Fineman: "People Are Out For Karl Rove Inside That White House"

HOWARD FINEMAN (NEWSWEEK): Right now, my sense, in reporting this, Chris, is that the Bush family, political family, is at war with itself inside the White House. My sense is, it‘s, it‘s, it‘s, it‘s Andy Card, the chief of staff, and his people against Karl Rove, the brain.


FINEMAN: And that runs through a whole lot of things, whether it‘s Harriet Miers or Katrina. But it all starts with Iraq.

And some submerged, but now emerging divisions within the administration over why we went into that war, how we went into that war and what was done to sell it. There are people are out for Karl Rove inside that White House, which makes his situation even more perilous.

My understanding, from talking to somebody quite close to this investigation, is that they think there are going to be indictments and possibly Karl Rove could be among them, if not for the act of the leaking information about Valerie Plame, then perhaps for perjury, because he‘s now testified four times.

And there are conflicts between what Matt Cooper told the grand jury and what Rove evidently told the jury himself. And Patrick Fitzgerald, the prosecutor, is an absolute stickler for detail who has no political axe to grind here, other than keeping his own credibility. Having put Judy Miller in jail, having gone to the lengths he had, my understand is, he has got some people here, not only Rove, but perhaps Scooter Libby, the vice president‘s chief of staff.

MATTHEWS: I also get the sense he reads the law book. He doesn‘t care about the politics.

FINEMAN: That‘s what I meant. That‘s what I meant. He doesn‘t care about the politics.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, you just raised a curtain-raiser for me. I didn‘t even know this.

You believe that the fight between those who may be headed toward indictment, the vice president‘s chief of staff, Karl Rove, there is a war between them and the people who are going to survive them, Andy Card, etcetera.


MATTHEWS: But is Andy Card saying now, here‘s his chance to prove the war was wrong? Is that what this — it‘s a shadow fight over that?

FINEMAN: I think it‘s possible. I think it‘s possible. Look, when you are up, you‘re up big time. Karl Rove was the boy genius.


FINEMAN: Karl Rove could do no wrong. But now Karl Rove seems to have been caught overstepping on this.


FINEMAN: And now people are questioning everything about it. And it goes back. If you have to have an organizing principle, it‘s the war in Iraq. That‘s what it is.

-- MSNBC's Hardball, Oct. 10


Anonymous MaineDem said...

Wow! I've never trusted Andy Card. He and Rove are cut from the same cloth and I had a few run-ins with Card in Massachusetts. Dirty campaign tricks and the like. He and a guy named Kauffman.

I think self-destruction in the White House is a very good thing. As long as the world doesn't suffer for it.

2:58 PM  
Anonymous fooj said...

Andy card is running for cover, as well. I think this is simply a question of who is trying to cover their own ass and who will win the prize for doing it best.

2:58 PM  
Anonymous thebigidea said...

what a bunch of crap. As if Andy Card was the good guy here.

Probably just damage control and the inevitable sinking ship syndrome.

Fineman is such a smug little shit...

3:01 PM  
Anonymous DesertedRose said...

As Samuel L. Jackson said in "Jurassic Park"...

"...hold on to your butts...."

3:02 PM  
Anonymous yellowcanine said...

Fleeing Rats....Ship....Sinking

3:03 PM  
Anonymous Demoiselle said...

Yes, Fineman is a smug little shit...But still (as I've said before...)


And last week I erupted in such noisy glee when they announced the DeLay indictments that all of my animals (two huge dogs and 7 cats) ran out of the room. They've calmed down since, but I'm hoping to repeat the performance when Mr. Fitzgerald finally tells us what he's been up to,

3:18 PM  
Anonymous Neil Lisst said...

Fineman is on top of it ...

The feuding between the president's men and the vp's men and women is serious. And this new wrinkle of tension between Card and Rove makes sense.

The Bush Crime family is like the fictional Corleone family. When a guy becomes a threat to the family - bada bing - that guy disappears.

Rove has become a danger to the Bush Crime Family, and there's no doubt Rove would like to see Scooter take the fall.

It's going to be reminiscent of the end of Godfather.

Rove, dead.

Libby, dead.

Hadley, dead.

Figuratively speaking, of course.

3:21 PM  
Anonymous asjr said...

As a rule Fineman walks a fine line when it comes to Shrub. There may be much more to the Plame business than we have anticipated. Howard has never been this adamant.

3:24 PM  
Anonymous tex-wyo-dem said...

The only way this administration has been able to keep all their corruption (somewhat) secret is the fact that they all operate in lock-step and are reading from the same page. It appears that there is nothing short of chaos going on in the WH right now with several top officials trying to cover their asses -- I might be wrong, but I have a sneaking suspision that there's going to be a lot of information coming out (possibly beyond Plame) once these indicments come down just from the mear fact that nobody in Fitz's sights wants to take the fall.

3:25 PM  
Anonymous OldLeftieLawyer said...

Fineman's talking out his ass, as usual, and Tweety's sniffing it up.

This investigation has leaked nothing. To anyone. Anywhere. It's the most air-tight investigation ever conducted in DC, according to some of the old-time lawyers I've talked to, and, in my 30 years as a Washington lawyer, I've never seen anything so closely held.

The fact is this - no one knows anything, and no one will know anything until Fitzgerald decides it's time.

End of any discussion. This blowing smoke crap is worthless.

3:47 PM  
Anonymous DemocracyInaction said...

Beautiful--was wondering when the vermin turn on each other.

No one wants to go down for this. And, I'm thinking that if "someone" is implicated then their boss is too--i.e, Rove/Bush or Scotter/Cheney. It's time the rat's start fighting for "first off the ship". And, I couldn't help thinking (never turn your back Carl on the crime family)that with Bush's numbers in the sewer that it could be very easy to do a 'MY GOD I DIDN'T KNOW CARL WAS SO EVIL AND HE MISLEAD ME ABOUT THIS WAR' act in hopes of looking like the innocent babe again betrayed by those who should be serving him. These people are ugly, they are dangerous and they are vile. And...while I'm at it...will someone please pull the plug on this Bush cares for those in NO, etc. shit. I truly can't stand it.

3:47 PM  
Anonymous chimpsrsmarter said...

They might all go down because of Rove so now they want him out everybody is running for cover.

3:48 PM  
Anonymous Neil Lisst said...

It's not a leak from the prosecutor, it's from CARD.

The Fineman info is not coming from the prosecutor, but from CARD.

For every leak, there is a leaker who has an agenda. Card is clearly the source of this story.

3:48 PM  
Blogger Barry said...

Andy Card was against the war? That might be true in a parallel universe, but not in this one. Card was the guy who uttered the infamous line about the right timing to sell the war, like it was a brand of soap or something.

3:49 PM  
Anonymous grasswire said...

.....Fineman hedged:

MATTHEWS: But is Andy Card saying now, here‘s his chance to prove the war was wrong? Is that what this — it‘s a shadow fight over that?

FINEMAN: I think it‘s possible. I think it‘s possible. Look, when you are up, you‘re up big time. Karl Rove was the boy genius.

3:49 PM  
Anonymous Yamara said...

Oompa loompa
Federal pen
Graves fill with
Indispensible men

3:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you don't think that Rove and Scooter don't have secret files - it could get interesting!

3:58 PM  
Blogger Tim said...

I agree with the poster Fineman is "a smug piece of shit" but I think I'd add Chris Matthews to that statement, as well. Remember, the MSM shoved "the Bush Family" down our throats! They OWN this mess.

4:22 PM  
Anonymous makesenseofit said...

Whose fault is all of this ??
The PEOPLE are at fault.. the voter ... those who are just catching on .. those who are grasping the truth and being used by the government ... all of US..
IT is a little too late since GWB has three long long years left for his dynasty and fruitful college frat smerk..
Karl the Marvel Rove is the juggernaut for which GWB is able to be president..
Karl the Marvel will go down with the rest if the people are heard.. unfortunately the people have little or no power.. the power is in the belt way ...
The belt way of the power brokers.
And these brokers may do the rightful and constitutional correct move and remove Karl, Dick, George and the rest out of office and start over again...

4:53 PM  
Blogger Keith near Denver said...

It was suggested that GWB would claim he didn't know Rove was doing these things. I don' think Bush could so easily claim he was misled by Rove. That would require admiting gullability and a mistake on his part - not typical of how he tries to present himself. I also don't think he could convinceingly distance himself from his "brain". It wouldn't fly.

5:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nothing will come of the Plame investigation. I hope I'm wrong on this score, but Fitzgerald is a Republican investingating a bunch of Republicans. These people can't be trusted;they are pathological liars. When Reno,a Democrat, appointed Starr, a Republican, Clinton was impeached. I'm not hopeful now. Wishing won't make it so.

5:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If I were Andy Card, I know what I'd do. I'd find a lawyer who's brilliant and cover my ass by having him or her leak info on Rove. I'd make sure that if I fell, Rove'd fall farther and I looked like I had little to do with the house of glass cards crashing on the table. Yes, Card is dirty, but Rove is worse and I'd make sure he got his worse than me...but, then again, thank the Invisible Cloud Being that I'm not Card.

5:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like historical parallels. (See my own blog-- historyunfolding.blogspot.com .)
This happened during Watergate and during Iran-Contra. In Watergate, the Haldeman gang in the White House wanted to sink John Mitchell (Dean's patron, too.) In Iran-Contra, George Schultz took advantage of his enemies' discomfiture.

In a royal court like this White House, there are bound to be factions, even if they keep it hidden. Thus I suspect this is true.

David Kaiser

5:21 PM  
Blogger Jack A said...

The real question is will anything change the minds of the Bush apologists.

As Stephanie Miller said:
"George Bush could have sex with a sheep on the White House lawn and set it on fire and my mother would say, 'Oh Stephie, the president is just trying to help. Why do you hate America so much?'

5:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not going to get my hopes up about the White House inner circle self destructing. They are the kings of damage control. Rove could become a scapegoat but nothing major is gonna happen. 3 more years of Dubya, business as usual, more contracts for Helliburton & Co. This whole thing is just smoke and mirrors while the money keeps pouring into the fight in Iraq and the gas keeps pouring into oversized American cars. Did anyone see Bush trying to tell people they should conserve gas? He just about choked. lol

5:29 PM  
Anonymous Greg said...

The house of Cards is coming apart and not a minute too soon. There is still time to save a few lives before these madmen do us all in. In internal war is fierce, and it will be every man for himself, with Rove, the chief mud slinger, leading the pack as they exit the building.

5:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fineman and his greatest fan, Matthews, are ultimately about themselves, caring far more for their story-breaking careers and general self-image than for the fate of the nation. Having said that, their speculations on intra-party squabbles, leaked, as someone pointed out, not by the prosecutor but by the players to suit their own agendas, might happen to be correct.

5:38 PM  
Blogger Brian de Ford said...

There's possibly a pattern in everything Fitzgerald has done. Maybe I've had too much wine, so see if you can spot a flaw in this logic.

Libby practically begged Plame to testify and said that her testimony would be to his advantage. Why would that be? Her testimony could be that Libby didn't leak to her, but if so that would only help Libby if a third person claims that Libby did leak to her. But if that's the case, why would she go to prison rather than vindicate her good buddy by giving testimony that would help him? If that were the case she'd be certain that his waiver against disclosure was not coerced but was sincerely meant. So it ain't that.

A more likely explanation is that two people (it has to be two for it to stand up against a denial by Libby) have already dropped Libby deep in the brown smelly stuff. But if that were the case then nothing Miller said in Libby's defense would be likely to help because those were private conversations with Libby. What can she say? "Libby told me he didn't leak" or "Libby didn't leak to me but I don't know if he leaked to somebody else"? And, even if she had something more concrete to say in Libby's defense, why go to jail rather than say it? As in the preceding case, if Judith had anything that would help Libby, she wouldn't have gone to jail rather than say it, and she wouldn't have insisted that she thought Libby's waver was coerced because she'd know it was to his benefit for her to testify.

So the only remaining possibility is that Libby has been dropped deep in the brown smelly stuff and has cut a deal with Fitzgerald so that an even bigger fish can be fried: a minor charge, or even idemnity, in return for testifying against a bigger fish. But if Fitzgerald already had other testimony that supported Libby, he wouldn't have jailed Miller.

So without Miller's corroboration of Libby's claims there would be no deal and that's why Libby was so desperate for Miller to testify. Her evidence will implicate Libby even further (or she wouldn't have been so reluctant to testify) but will also corroborate other testimony (maybe from Libby, maybe from somebody else) that will put the bigger fish on the hook.

And who might that bigger fish be? Well, who just got called to appear for a fourth time (and this time with no guarantee he won't be indicted) scant days after Miller's testimony? So Libby has cut a deal by giving evidence against Rove, and with Miller's testimony Fitzgerald can indict Rove.

But why would Rove be called to give testimony again if Fitzgerald already has the goods against him? This is the pattern I spoke of at the start. Just as Fitzgerald has cut a deal with Libby so that he can get Rove, Rove will be given a deal if he corroborates other evidence Fitzgerald already has against even bigger fish.

There are only two bigger fish than Rove. It could be either of them or both of them. Since Libby (Cheney's gopher) and Rove (Bush's brain) are both involved, it's likely to be both Bush and Cheney.

I'd hate to see Libby and Rove walk entirely free, so I hope the deal with Fitzgerald restricts their indictments to lesser offences rather than giving them total immunity. But if Libby and Rove going free is the price of indicting Bush and Cheney then it's a price I'm (reluctantly) willing to pay.

Maybe the wine has taken me to a happy land where evil finally gets what is coming to it and I'm deluding myself. If so, let me enjoy a few hours with the pleasant thought that Bush and Cheney are soon to be indicted.

5:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

June 1934 (June 20, I believe). Berlin. Hitler purges the S.A.; betrayal of old friends and associates. Goebbels, Goering and the other madmen choosing, calculating who will come out on top; mass arrests; summary executions. Ahhhh. The good ol' days when criminals like the Bush gang could just stand their domestic enemies against a wall and execute them. I have fantasized often over the past five years what fun it would be if all those psychopaths and perverts in the White House, and in the War Department, and the State Department, were allowed to wear side arms. I'm sure there would have been some internecine killing by now. It would have saved all of us, the Nation, a lot of grief if they had been armed. Too bad....

6:08 PM  
Blogger Maezeppa said...

Karen Hughes was nosed out by KR and now she's back albeit in a different capacity. I wonder whether that's not another sign of a sea change in the balance of power.

Sidebar: will Bush pardon Rove?

6:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shades of Mr.Smith Goes To Washington....I wish,as we all do....but all of you are dreaming if you think a Republican is EVER GOING TO HURT ANOTHER Republican, even if he is not politically motivated....
Forget the radical religious, it's the corporate lobbyists with the power and if you think they're going to let any 'REAL' break down happen, then you're still too young or too gullible

6:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well, blaming Rove for what happened in EyeRack is not totally accurate. You have Dick and his Israelis friends who want to crush any threats in Mid-East. Eyerack, Iran and syria. Then you have Rove who wanted to win elections. So Iraq is their weapon of choice that the WH collectively used to crush Dems and dissenters.

Now, the walls are closing in around them, Rove is convenient scapegoat.

6:47 PM  
Anonymous ModTex said...

of course Msnbc fed neocon crap this to us as they attempted to compete with faux news whose ratings were blowing away cnn,msnbc etc. just like with the Soparano's the wh leans heavy on those they don't like and the main stream media caved in

6:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bush and Rove are pros at one thing: the Nixon game of Dirty Tricksterism. The cardinal rule is in times of trouble, there is no real loyalty, but only loyalty is rewarded.

No wonder we never elected these guys...

Oh, and join the Missing P Project to erase the unearned P from Resident Bush.


6:59 PM  
Anonymous Madame Karnak said...

You guys need to spend more time in the streets with real people. I live in Texas and I can tell you that if Bush walked down the streets of the little town that I live in...Well, all La Raza, the poorer hueros and the moderate-sized farmers would beat him senseless, roll him in pig muck followed by straw, let him bake in the afternoon sun and then have him mounted and stuffed as an example of how not to govern.

Let's be honest, Bush would not be President except for the sell out of the Supremes and then the rigging of the electronic machines. The people in the streets have suspected this and now, they are sure, because they are talking to each other. Unless everybody is lying, hardly anybody except the completely unaware voted for Bush. Even local AMA members who did vote for him are now saying openly that they did not vote for him.

The only way that this Congress and these politicians can save themselves is to stop the Reichmarch and get back to the business of righting this country. Bring back our jobs. Bring back our manufacturing, so we can begin paying back the Chinese and Japanese. Tax the rich, tax the corporations regardless of where they say that their offices are; deny any US business to corporations that don't pay taxes here, get us out of Iraq, put money into energy savings in housing and cars and strip away corporate personhood from corporations so that they can be policed effectively.

There are very few people out here in depressed, empoverished middle America that don't want to get rid of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz etc. I don't know any and I talk to a lot of people about this subject pretty regularly. Go search on Pro Bush and find out how few websites there are. It's a wake up call.

What's wrong with this country is the fact that WASHINGTON HAS BECOME OUR GREEN ZONE. Nothing seems to get in and the inhabitants are living the fantasy inside with no idea what is beyond the walls of their dreamland.

Madame Karnak

7:41 PM  
Anonymous Kreegar said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12:03 AM  
Anonymous Durham D said...

This Fineman/Matthews charade is so obvious. They have both spoken to sources inside the WH (Andy Card probably) and are helping the WH spin the upcoming indictment of Rove. They are setting it up to show that Rove lied the Pres., thus the Pres. is innocent and not responsible for the treason Karl committed.

Fineman and Matthews are spinners for the Bushes - nothing else, nothing new.

1:02 AM  
Anonymous Richardo said...

More 'perilous'? Or more 'hilarious'?

There are people are out for Karl Rove inside that White House, which makes his situation even more perilous.

I say the latter.

1:04 AM  
Anonymous AntiFascist said...

OK MSM, now connect the dots.....

what could possibly be the relationship between supporting Miers and Plamegate (possibly leading to other 'gates)? Why would Bush need such a loyal confidant on the Supreme Court?

1:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1:54 AM  
Blogger esmense said...

I haven't foundd Fineman credible on most other things, why suddenly believe in him now?

Anyway, Rove's MO -- used over and over and over again -- is to put out or encourage some scandalous or over-the-top speculation about his side, wait for or rope the press and his competitors into spreading/making an issue of it, and then turning the tables on them so that they (the press and the opposition) end up discredited instead. Another version of this technique is to encourage the over-hyping of situations that he knows will turn out to be, while serious, much less sensational than the over-hyped reporting has suggested. So, in the long run, the real scandal or event is minimized and everything reported about it, no matter how accurate, ends up looking suspect.

I'm not going to be convinced that these guys will pay any serious consequences for their actions until I see them in handcuffs and orange jumpsuits.

1:02 PM  
Anonymous El said...

uh, makesenseofit got news for ya...Bush is NOT MY FAULT, half of the country DID NOT VOTE for that liar. so get it right pal.

1:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought I heard /saw the whole interview but somehow everything beyond the following quotes were not broadcast.
MATTHEWS: I also get the sense he reads the law book. He doesn‘t care about the politics.

FINEMAN: That‘s what I meant. That‘s what I meant. He doesn‘t care about the politics.

At this point Mathews and Fineman are cross talking and it ended soon going to a commercial. I swear thats how I saw it. How come?

3:48 PM  
Anonymous Big Daddy said...

Rove, Libby, so what else is new. The special prosecutor is going to make the blood run red in the White House. The country will be better for it. Not even Karl Rove will be able to get rid of the stink an indictment will cause. It's the end of the Bush Administration and we should all thank God for it!!!!!

6:45 PM  
Anonymous bisbeephilosopher said...

semenes is correct. The betrayal is in the destruction wrought on basic credibility.

9:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When Bush lost, if not stole it in Ohio, the election last November, I then openly predicted Bush's second term would submerge in scandal as the truths behind the Iraq lies eventually surfaced.
But never did I predict it would happen so suddenly, perhaps aided by progress in the Rovegate scandal and the disclosure of the Downing Street Memos. This administration is a historical failure. My next prediction: impeachment hearings, if not that, an administration so lame duck that Bush's official role will be relegated to playing with his dogs on his Texas ranch.

10:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I had it in mind to write in my blog about other things BUT ...

I CAN't ...


I was listening to a discussion between Ritter and S. Hurst.... they got to talking about contractors in Iraq.... The bombing of another 200,000 person city during the last Katrina ... THE US is paying for death squads run by a contractor and Iraqi killers... .. . yes, it creates a sad tender silence ... the same thing that happened in Chile....

We the USA are paying for people to kill to induce fear....

Where are the voices????

john cook

12:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...



We all know that what is called the democratic or rep. party is really just a lose federation of groups that may or may have competing goals. This is seen on the DNC web site that lists various interest groups and not much on core values... It is also seen on the right.

That said, real vaules can be deduced by one's actions. MY HAT goes off the ROVE/BUSH, and cast... on defining BUSH as a borm again christian. THIS allowed Bush's past behavior to be ignored since he had been saved. IT also gave them leaway to attac[o=k]h others that did not have this get out of jail free card... a TRUELY amazing coop. or is it co-op... or co-opt...???

some-times it is easy to for-GET by IN-vent-ing (blow??) in a fear-ful response to that that that is foreign (ERs) to our noti

12:20 PM  

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